Episode 55: ESG,Selina Sagayam: Gibson, Dunn & Crutcher
Transcript
00:01.72
carolinesclub
I'm Caroline Garnon host of episode 55 of how to keep your money as a former private client lawyer specializing in international trusts and succession planning and a pioneer in family governance I bring a unique perspective to the services of my guests. My background in psychology further enriches my insights. My entrepreneurial spirit led me to establish Caroline's club of global network for private client professionals where networking works. Um, I'm as part of my online training which earned me the title women entrepreneur of the year Twenty Twenty Four I'm joined remotely by Celina Sagaam an english qualifieified senior of council and recent former partner at Gibson Dun and Crutch's London office. She's a pioneer and leader in the firm's environmental sustainability and governance esg for short practice and a member of its international corporate group brummel magazine awarded her an inspirational women city leader in 2020 seina you are an attractive woman in a man's world who gives advice leads transactions and does deals but you have not just won awards as a woman but as a leader in your field. You're recognized by the legal 500 u k twenty twenty four.
01:28.30
carolinesclub
Private equity transactions and m and a upper midmarket and premium deals above seven hundred and fifty million pounds the people behind these deals are often companies and private equity firms. But they also include successful entrepreneurs what drew you to this area of law. Where all-nighters are not uncommon seleina welcome.
01:52.62
Selina Sagayam
Thank you, Caroline. Well as my ambition of singing and performing on stage was dashed literally at birth by being born into a conservative asian christian household. I guess I had to look elsewhere to get the intellectual challenge and adrenaline rush which I think are likely the hallmarks of my executive career growing up as a child of a diplomat and traveling around the world meant that economics and politics was. Pretty much a breadand-butter subject around our dinner table. However, my father the diplomat in more ways than 1 did not mince his words when he warned me off a Korea in foreign affairs. But it was his interest in Law. Um. And we had and actually I still have it a hardbound copy of Lord Dennings the discipline of law an unusual site I think to see on the shelf of a malaysian diplomat who had never had the chance to go to university was actually what sparked my interest in Law. My mom was. Um, very quick off the Mark to warn me off a criminal law practice fearing in her conservative asian way that you know I'd become the victim of some less savory types or client. So I had to look at subject areas which would expose me to the world of corporations finance and economics geopolitics which i.
03:24.33
Selina Sagayam
Very much loved and still um and enjoy working in I I cut my teeth and I was groomed um for the intellectual challenges that my practice brings um by starting off a career at the bar trained with one of the leading corporate set Erskine Chambers and that really gave me a taste for commercial law in action and gosh Caroline has there been a lot of action in my career I mean I love the challenge of doing a deep dive into a new sector. Um, really you know getting into the shoes of my client taking the time to understand the broader di. Dynamicics um, which can either make or break a deal to be honest and the nature of my legal practice has never been commoditized. Um, not in product type not in terms of sector geography or even client type and in both the law firms in which I've had the privilege to practice. I've worked on some landmark transactions. Not just the ft headliners. But I've um, I've done deals and worked for many family officers and you know management teams helping them with investments and exits which have been life changing actually for them. Um, as for the all-nighters to be honest. Was absolutely naive when I started off in the profession over thirty years ago um I wasn't aware that this was a feature of big law I recall driving home from the offices of an investment bank that we were working alongside after 3 all-nighters in a row. It actually hit.
05:00.51
Selina Sagayam
The city diary of the telegraph at that time grateful that my 6 am sessions in the gym had frankly given me the strength and resilience to conquer those three days and it saw me to announcing what I think is still asia's largest ever m and a transaction. I hope that gives you a bit of a flavor as to how I am where I am.
05:21.49
carolinesclub
Thank you very much selena a lot of things I didn't know you have an extensive experience on both sides of the law. You mentioned that you started off as a barrister and you are also a solicitor and as a regulator tour and a regular tea. On the 1 hand you spent 2 years toder to the panel on takeovers and mergers the key regulatory body governing public company acquisitions in the Uk on the other hand you serve as a non-executive director of a footsie 250 company which is. Why you're no longer a partner at gibson dun how has this broad experience at the bar and on both sides of regulation shaped your approach to your work and your clients Selena.
06:10.54
Selina Sagayam
I I'm glad that you know you sort of picked that up and and I do think the breath of my experience has been pivotal to my practice. It's enhanced my role as a true conciliary and helped me to bring you know. Grounded really solutions driven approach to my practice. You know some frankly including fellow legal practitioners mistake the role of a transactional lawyer which I'm principally and as being a glorified project manager. Um I think that couldn't be further from Reality. Um. You know as I mentioned the types of transactions that I've led ah have and and indeed the advisory mandates that I'm leading now particularly in the Esg space which we might touch on later have a lot of what we call hair on Them. You know they're complex. They're tricky.
07:06.25
Selina Sagayam
And the diverse experience I guess first starting off at the bar when I was at the bar has really helped me navigate and shaped my practice and the way I advise clients so you know at the bar some of the trickiest and naughtiest technical legal issues were thrown my way and this is honed. Um. The intellectual discipline ah that I bring actually to any problem that I come across and actually it's really foundational to being a good and expert corporate advisor my time as a regulator. The takeover panel has been transformational both for my practice area. You know. Became really known as a public m and a practitioner. Um, but it's also transform me more generally in terms of you know the experience of that 2 years actually at the panel gave me so I was secondconed into the senior role of the takeover panel and that meant that I was involved. Not just in policy work and engagement. But you know, domestic um Uk and international regulators but I was also involved in the heart of the day-to-day regulation of Uk takeovers and it's the latter which has given me I think you know frankly a substantive advantage when I think about my. Standing in the area of sort of takeover advisory work. But importantly, when advising clients and specific transactions. Many of them have some form of regulatory issue in play. Ah.
08:41.53
Selina Sagayam
I've had the insights into the types of pressure points and drivers that impact regulators that impact how they actually go about day-to-day regulation and are thinking about regulatory outcomes and having been on that side of the fence it is It is helped. In terms of how I've been advising clients approach regulatory challenges and I think it's brought to me a very pragmatic um approach on transactions and deals. But lastly, but by no means least my. Time serving as a non-exective director initially um, part of a financial services Regulated group. Um and and now um with a company operating in the renewable space they have been of real value to my practice and I would say. In particular latterly to my easg advisory practice which I've Spearheaded. You know when you're part of the leadership of an organization. Um, critically, it's where the buck stops right? It's ah my proverbial is on the hot seat. It's my head which will be rolling. If The regulator comes knocking on our door doesn't like the outcome um that my company is delivering um I need to be thinking about the people within the organization and what keeps them? Um, and what attracts them and and that that exposure. Ah.
10:15.91
Selina Sagayam
But also a real understanding of how issues you know a particular deal will actually impact the strategy of a company has enhanced my I think actually both my standing. Um, but also the quality of advice. Um that that I bring to the table for my clients. The reality of what goes behind a closed door. Um, when the board of a company or an investment committee of a private equity firm when they're left to make the decisions. Um I E when the lawyers or the bankers have been asked to leave the room. It's.. It's a real eye-opener actually and it's given me I think an added context and a dimension which I bring to bear when I am advising clients I understand why I literally do understand and and have been in the seat that they have been um I think you know. Being part of that body deciding you know whether the price is right are be going to take on a key regulatory issue are be going to fight that case and and it's not just me handing over that decision to a client I've been responsible for those decisions. Um, it. It has brought an extra insight I think and and dimension to my practice. It's also being in a leadership role albeit as a non-execive director. Um, you have to understand and have a real understanding of the risks. The opportunities.
11:44.53
Selina Sagayam
Um, you know the operations of an organization and its dependencies and it's that broader understanding of the corporation and how it works which has meant that when I have come to advise on a legal transaction or a regulatory matter. That I can actually put that in its real context and hopefully bring some added value to the table.
12:10.19
carolinesclub
Thank you Selena I've known you as you know for many years um but it was not until I started researching your background that I discovered your moral ethical and compassionate strengths.
12:24.58
carolinesclub
We've mentioned esg environmental sustainability and good governance and and this corporate movement companies are now keen to promote these credentials but this was not as popular as it is now. Tell me more about how you got into this and and how it's how passionate you are about this.
12:45.65
Selina Sagayam
Thanks Caroline again for bringing up a you know key aerial focus for me I guess sam me the journey into the esg space and I'm often almost feel reluctant to use it because it's become um, it's still a misused and misunderstood word. But it was a natural progression. Um and development because it builds on a number of areas of focus and interest for me diversity equity inclusion. No people. Um governance have always been involved in governance, advisory matters and actually as a board director obviously directly. In the seat of ah of governance and also corporate purpose. You know what companies are about um and but also it it has the added um actually challenge and interest for me because. Yeah, esg factors are relevant across the breadth of an organization. Um, it does and it should impact all aspects of a business from a both an internal and external lens. Ah if you don't mind me indulging me or just to hopefully. A little while Caroline did a quick primer if you'd like on esg because I think it's some of the misunderstanding which has almost led me to spearhead our practice. Um, many people have deliberately in some cases or actually just misunderstood what esg is about what it is and what it's not about so.
14:15.98
Selina Sagayam
1 of the earliest myths being that esg is about you know its corporate social responsibility csr csr is only 1 aspect of esg. You know how an organization um engages with the communities. Ah. Where it's situated or operating is only 1 aspect actually ah of the yes that e g about. But yes, she is much more than that. Um, it's um, it. It's about just if you take the the e aspect again which many people just associate with climate or carbon footprint.
14:49.90
Selina Sagayam
An organization which is really getting their arms around es g needs to be thinking about their impact and their use of water waste management but also importantly, nature and biodiversity. The side of esg. Ah you know, ah mentioned sort of communities. But. It's much more than that again, it's around. Um how you treat your people working conditions human rights modern slavery data governance information, security data ethics which are huge topics particularly in this day and age of you know the development of Ai and of course. G governance which has been around if you'd like for a while. Um yes, it's it's about um, boards leadership ah diversity of of thought at that level. But it's also about effective systems and controls it goes into. You know how you incentivize your leadership tax governance tax policy ah and and it's the the breadth of these issues which really should already be at the heart and soul of many organizations considerations I think what what is why it's been of interest to me is a recognition that these are factors which are not just nice to have but they do have and potentially will have a real impact on the balance sheet.
16:17.80
Selina Sagayam
On financial impacts but all and returns for investors and it often. It's actually been the investor community which has been driving the esg um ah agenda ah and and and the world is changing so you know a number of years ago. Ah. Organizations whether within the asset management sector or within the corporate world had started to look at esg. Um, really as a sort of add-on as a you know as part of ah, a voluntary thing that they might be looking. To to go into and and there are voluntary standards that many organizations have signed up to whether it relates to climate or around diversity equity and issues. But the world is changing and we're moving into an area where um, the requirement. To actually take into account esg Factors disclose and operationalize them actually truly embed them in the heart and thinking of a business's strategy and planning is becoming mandatory and I have um, you know I'd seen that coming a number of years ago. Moving away from this voluntary system into a mandatory world. Um, and and and hence why I you know took the initiative to start our oh UKESG practice and and now I'm ah and ah you know one of the co-leaders of our global practice as I said Ec is not a nice to have um, it's more than a strapline. It.
17:43.55
Selina Sagayam
It really should be very much heart and soul of an organization's thinking and it will add value. Um, and that's going to be key.
17:50.13
carolinesclub
Thank you, you're Gibson Duns Global Diversity committee member and chair of the london diversity talent and inclusion committee and its community affairs committee what problems do these organizations tackle. Give me some examples of their impact on these issues solutions and outcomes. Um.
18:15.50
Selina Sagayam
Um, both um the the focus era of the diversity talent and inclusion committee but which I've chaired now for a number of years and our corporate affairs. Um, community and initiatives fundamentally for me, It's about people. It's about talent and people and talent particularly in the services sector which um is the one that I'm operating in are absolutely Critical. Um, the the challenges that we have um, faced in which have been brought into focus.
18:52.47
Selina Sagayam
Some of which have been driven by regulatory um pressures um are very varied in nature and we have a number of affinity or subgroups. Um within the the Gibson dun diversity talent and inclusion committee.
19:11.10
Selina Sagayam
Covering everything from gender related issues to social Mobility disability both visible and invisible ethnicity Lgbtq Plus Mental Health and wellness and professional development. Quite a lot there as you can imagineline um and and the initiatives and the efforts that we are involved in ah are important for our own people for our talent for recruiting. The best and the brightest but also a really broad diverse base of talent I think it's absolutely essential particularly in the services profession dealing with the types of tricky and complex issues that we have that we have diversity of thought and thinking which are brought to the table. Um. But it also impacts how we engage with our clients. You know it's essential that we um have a you know ah team around us and it's not just the lawyers. But every single person in this building counts to me. It's all of our staff. We're all working together and we should be rowing in the same direction but recognizing also that people are individuals that um that that our needs you know will change over time that we need to be creating you know working environments and a culture. You know it really drives culture. Um.
20:39.99
Selina Sagayam
Where people feel safe to speak out. Um, and there've been many issues which have come into the for a I mean just take the last few years whether it's in the context of ethnicity and the black lives matters movement or even now some of the issues around faith religion and culture.
20:42.29
carolinesclub
No.
20:58.83
Selina Sagayam
Because of what we're seeing um, ah in the Middle East where people need to be to feel comfortable about bringing their whole selfves to work. They need to feel supported when they're facing some of the biggest challenges in their lives which could be you know having a child for the first time looking after an ill.
21:04.24
carolinesclub
Of specific.
21:18.80
Selina Sagayam
Parent. Ah the types of issues that we um are tackling are hugely diverse in nature. They're complex many of them are intertwined so we talk about um intersectionality. Um, in the context of diversity. Ah, it's not.
21:26.58
carolinesclub
And.
21:36.82
Selina Sagayam
You know, typically just 1 vertical issue like gender but you know you have more pronounced challenges for example for a woman um of color who has come from a socially challenged background. Um, who's trying to make a world. You know make the way in the corporate world and understanding those issues are important. How we are servicing and supporting our talent um has changed over time in part. It's based around education and awareness just actually raising these issues I mean even if I take you know mental health and wellness nobody spoke about mental. Health particularly in the legal profession until very recently it was an absolute taboo subject. Um I mean at the end of the day of for an adviser. You know there can't be any mental compromise you're giving me advice. There couldn't be any discussions around that area similarly until only very recently.
22:20.23
carolinesclub
And.
22:34.40
Selina Sagayam
Have issues around Menopause and the impact that it has had on you know, ah women, um, female talent. It just simply was not an issue that would be brought up these are you know matters which are to be left at home. So um, there is a piece around education and awareness around language. Um, but definitely.. It's also about engendering a culture within organizations where um people with all of their diversities and the richness of that feel comfortable that they can bring themselves their true selves to place to. You know to work and feel supported in it.
23:11.23
carolinesclub
Your practice Lina extends from samseast asia to the Middle East europe and the us in short the world it is said that if you want to get something done. Give it to someone who's busy I'm surprised you have. And time to sleep tell me what it's like to have your finger in so many pies across so many continents.
23:40.20
Selina Sagayam
I mean as you would expect Caroline. It's both um, a blessing in a curse. Um, but I have I've asked for it I've brought it about and unto myself I'm terrible at saying no um. My support structure my pas you know they're often telling me just just say no stay and I can't help myself. Um thankfully and you know touchwood even to this day I can survive on relatively little sleep I'm sure it's it's having its toll in some shape or form. Um, but but that's you know that's not the solution as it were I mean what is it like actually I often feel guilty I cannot tell you how many emails or messages have started with I'm so sorry. Um, but it's taken me, you know the apologies I'm blessed to have. Um, to be surrounded I think by by people you know friends and family who have the patience actually um and who understand oh hopefully they understand that I'm coming from a good place. Ah, it's been enriching and I think um for me, you know.
24:51.90
Selina Sagayam
From day 1 entering into the legal profession. It's never been a job It's been a career. It's opened so many doors for me and it's absolutely essential for me that I for me. Ah, um, as a person that. I'm able to give back but where I can also to share. Um, what I've learned um you know from the mistakes of the past and a lot of the if you'd like the additional things that I do um around the strict sort of like day job has. Been enhancing I think they've they've been you know at times they've been almost accidental but they have been strategic. They have you know as we discussed for example, um, supported me in in my advisory practice but also developed me as a person I'm also the type of person who doesn't like to. Just I like a bit of discomfort frankly um I love learning and I took myself off a couple of years ago to ah to do a course into sort of sustainability and capitalism. So whilst it's a challenge it. It makes me feel alive.
26:08.38
carolinesclub
Um, your passionate Sena about women's rights and you joined refuge in 18 despite women's equality. There is still a lot of abuse surprisingly um of disabled women.
26:08.60
Selina Sagayam
Um, and that's key.
26:25.70
carolinesclub
Ah, refuge provides a safe place but abuse is not limited to women with inadequate means who need to get away from physical abuse is also prevalent among wealthy women who are abused technologically and financially you say that during the lockdown in covid. Many women were used as punch bags. How did you get involved and what does it mean to you Selina.
26:54.98
Selina Sagayam
I Um, got involved with refuge in the work that it does for um, personal reasons I think many people who do support the sector have some connection to it. Um, and so it was due really to the lived experience of.
27:12.50
carolinesclub
And.
27:12.90
Selina Sagayam
Family and friends. Um refuge is you know the Uk's largest domestic abuse charity. Ah it it is devastating that we still have to tackle these issues today. Um refuge provides. Support notwithstanding its name. Yes, it provides accommodation. But also as you've pointed out. Um Caroline um, a lot of the work that refuge does is in providing on-the ground support advice and handholding really of both women. Um, victims of domestic abuse and their children. There's a whole range of services. Um that we provide um, including you know putting this very key issue ah top of the agenda of politicians. So and also driving policy change and. Legislative change. The stats are are actually quite shocking and horrific. Um, and you know I'll come to covid in in a minute but but just looking at the yeah uk 1 in 4 women in England and Wales will um. Experienced domestic abuse in their lifetime twenty percent of children in the yeah uk ah have lived with an adult perpetrating domestic abuse and you know to estimate that about 3 women a week
28:48.32
Selina Sagayam
Die By Suicide as a result of domestic abuse and you know truly I mean sadly and and it was a stat which wasn't um I wasn't aware of and until I joined refuge disabled people are nearly 3 times more likely to have experienced domestic abuse um than non-disabled. People it. All of this is absolutely shocking and horrific ah during Covid Um, there were there was even less place for women to hide from they they were stuck at home with you know, abusers and perpetrators. Ah. Who frustrated as the rest of the world was with what was happening around them and not surprisingly and naturally um, yeah, these women became even more of a punch bag for perpetrators as a result actually during Covid Um, refuge.
29:44.87
Selina Sagayam
You know was very much um in the forefront of a lot of people's Minds. We've received a lot of support and donations. But you know that has has ebbed away. Um, but the problems still persist. Problems still persist and they are complex in nature I think you know historically the fact that we're even saying domestic abuse if you sort of cast your mind back a number of years ago. People only talked about domestic violence and there was a view that you you know you would only be the victim. And um, ah of a domestic abuse if you turned up with you know a bruised eye broken bone. But actually if you have turned up at that stage. It's probably going to be too late for you the stats show that they are very then close to a stage of where you know the abuse can escalate into something which is you know which is fatal frankly. Um, and so there's a lot more to be done in this space I am passionate about it and because there is so much to be done. Um the the and there are people to be Supported. It's a complex area. Every woman is different. The situation is different. Are different challenges when you look at women from different communities who come from different cultural Backgrounds. There are even more complexities when we look at the overlap between um, human trafficking and um, domestic Abuse. There's a huge overlap there. These are complex issues. Um, and um, they.
31:17.50
Selina Sagayam
You know Drd with trauma. Um, it's It's a very difficult space to work In. Um I Hope that you know by you know I'm vice chair at refuge. Um, yeah, that in you know in my own small way that I can be. Helping in this area of critical need.
31:36.20
carolinesclub
Thank you Selina in addition to these broad and impressive achievements. You are also a mother and a wife you say you are supported by your 3 siblings and your strong Christian faith which you say is your rock and mainsday. In the few moments that remain tell me about these supports and give examples of how they help you.
32:03.92
Selina Sagayam
As indeed Caroline I mean you know my faith my family very much what shapes me I mean you heard from. You know my first answer my parents are pivotal in leading me to down the career path that I've chosen. Um.
32:20.81
Selina Sagayam
Parents. It's it's just my mother now my father passed over a decade ago. My two older sisters and my brother are probably the biggest um supporters of me albeit silent because it's not seemly really to be praising one's own siblings. Or child too much particularly in the household and culture cultural background that I come from but they're probably also my harshest critics but I can take it from them. They know me um and you know they they are ah truly both my faith and my family of what. Ah, it's kept me grounded but also uplifted um things like respect I think it's a word which is not used enough today respect for my parents. You know our heritage of family name ah has shaped my actions and behaviors and how I treat people and how I expect actually that I'd like to be treated but certainly as my christian faith. Um, ah you know all of us have faced challenges and continue to face challenges at different shapes and forms. Um, you mentioned that you know I'm a mom I'm a. And older mom as my mother kept on reminding me when I was pregnant with my first child. Um, so I'm late to motherhood I've I've 2 children young children and you know that in itself brings on um, you know it sort of.
33:51.28
Selina Sagayam
Turn my life sort of like topsyturvy. But it's also truly enhanced me but it's you know yet another challenge and there will always be you know issues and challenges on the work front I I speak um, using you know, largely on Whatsapp but to be honest, every day with my family multiple times we're often. You know, reaching out to each other asking for prayers to help us through you know the good and the bad and although my my mom my siblings may not you know, ah may not be privy um to some of the nitty-gritty of the day today. What gets me through is just knowing that they have my back um that they're supporting me. Um and you know through the challenges that I face but also just celebrating some of the opportunities and successes that I've had my.
34:29.19
carolinesclub
I.
34:46.34
Selina Sagayam
Christian Catholic faith is is sent as a center of fugal force. Um, actually for both me and each member of our family I as a young lawyer I probably kept my faith in the closet. Um, ah but it was my mentor Stewart who you know Caroline Andro who gave me the courage actually to be open about my faith and um and and that has helped me actually it's been part of my journey into being really the true sort of authentic person I hope that I am my my attachment to my family and my faith might be seen as a weakness by some. You might call it a crutch I certainly don't see it that way. It's got me to where I am this is me I make no apologies for it and you know I hope my journey um can be an inspiration to others that would definitely. Be a bonus.
35:43.45
carolinesclub
Selena Thank you so much for joining me on how to keep your money today you inspire all of us to make more than just money and do more for our community to make a difference in the lives of others for those of us who think they're busy. May they spare a thought for the impact of their business and not just on their activity if any of our listeners would like to know more about Caroline's club where networking works please contact me by email or phone for your free introduction on how to win business and more and save time for other things. Like Selina I look forward to hearing from you. Thank you very much Selena for your time and your energy. Thank you.
36:22.51
Selina Sagayam
Thank you Caroline.
